Zoe McKenzie MP
Shadow Assistant Minister for Education and Early Learning
Shadow Assistant Minister for Mental Health
Federal Member for Flinders
TRANSCRIPT
ABC NEWS AFTERNOON BRIEFING INTERVIEW WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS AND JEROME LAXALE
Thursday, 31 July 2025
Topics: Childcare Reform, Palestine, Kash Patel, Net Zero
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to bring in my political panel for today. Jerome Laxale is the Labor MP for Bennelong and a key figure in Labor’s environment movement. Zoe McKenzie is the Shadow Assistant Minister for Education and Early Learning. Welcome to both of you.
ZOE MCKENZIE: Thanks for having us.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, well, that sounded very positive, didn’t it? It’s not all negative. Zoe, is this the kind of spirit of this Parliament? A lot of praise there from Jason Clare.
ZOE MCKENZIE: Well, you would know, Patricia, there’s actually a lot of bipartisanship that goes on behind the crash and bash of what you see on the news at night. And may I say, all my interaction with Jason over the last three or four years has been really good, whether it’s about generative AI in the education system, or, indeed, the deep collaboration we’ve had over this particular bill to make the safety measures in early childhood more robust. So, we’ve had a number of briefings with him, his team and his department that has produced a good piece of legislation that makes some necessary changes, but it’s not everything. More hard work must follow, and the Leader of the Opposition was very clear to say that today in her remarks in Question Time. We’d like to see further action in relation to making what is currently a voluntary code mandatory, the exclusion of devices unless they’re work-based devices on the premises, CCTV, things like that, just to make sure parents can again have faith and trust in a really important part of the education architecture of the nation.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, there was a report that broke this afternoon, a Sydney out-of-school-hours care worker being accused of producing child abuse material involving 10 children aged five to six. So, just staying with you, Zoe, it just shows that there is a big urgency around this legislation, right?
ZOE MCKENZIE: Absolutely. And to be fair, they are charges from about a year ago, but nevertheless, every week it feels at the moment that we are getting another story of something that’s happened somewhere. And as the Minister has been at pains to say, we’ve got to remember, 99.99% of people who work in this sector are as passionate about children’s safety as you and I are, but we just need to make sure that there is no room for this kind of behaviour to take place in those settings. So, all eyes are focused on this task. We will work together as best we can, but as a dynamic, vibrant opposition, we will keep our eyes on what the government is doing and ask them to act with haste where they can. It’s still another three weeks until the early childhood ministers get together. I’m all in favour for that being sooner rather than later.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Jerome, there has been cooperation on this, but there needs to be more work, doesn’t there? There’s a Productivity Commission report which suggests a national framework for some of this, potentially a regulator. There’s been discussion about that. Doesn’t there need to be more change than just this legislation?
JEROME LAXALE: Absolutely, and the Minister today, in his comments publicly and in Question Time, made it very clear that this is not the end of the steps that we need to take to ensure that parents have confidence in the early childhood sector, we didn’t shout out to Zoe McKenzie, of course, our guest who did also play her part, and Jess Walsh, the Assistant Minister as well. Working together on this issue is incredibly important and it’s above politics. Today’s news is deeply distressing, and we’ve had five of those centres named today by the AFP in my electorate of Bennelong. And, you know, that’s really distressing. Even though that this alleged perpetrator has been locked up since October last year, we’ve had people contact our office. It’s been quite disturbing for us and for all the families who may or may not be affected by this. I might take this opportunity, Patricia, just to read out a very special message to those who may be impacted. There’s a dedicated local contact point for people in Sydney’s north for getting more information. The number is 02 9765 1000 or reach out to my office if you need any support.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, it’s a really disturbing story and I think a lot of people are very affected by this, aware of that, there’s people watching. I want to change the topic to the big issue, I think, that we’ve seen around the world, not just in Australia, and that’s Palestinian statehood, also the unfolding crisis in Gaza. Prime Minister Mark Carney has said Canada intends to recognise a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September.
I just spoke with Penny Wong who said, yeah, there are live discussions about whether Australia will do the same thing in September. So, Jerome, level with me, would you like Australia to join these nations?
JEROME LAXALE: Well, it’s been a long-held bipartisan position for an Australian government, including this one, for a two-state solution and the recognition of a Palestinian state. It’s important that, for us, that this be part of a peaceful resolution of the conflict over there so that both Palestinians and Israelis can live in enduring peace. And you heard what the Prime Minister said over the last coming days on this issue. We do not want a Palestinian state with Hamas involved, and we welcome the Palestinian Authority stepping up in this case, and we need all hostages released. We’ll continue to monitor the situation, call for a ceasefire, call for humanitarian aid to be there. But we, you know… It’s a bipartisan position for the state to be recognised, and we’ll keep on doing that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The state to be recognised is bipartisan. The order of when that happens is not bipartisan anymore. So, just still to you, Jerome, would you… Because Penny Wong left it open on this show. I said, is September still an option for the government to declare that it will support a Palestinian state? You know many of your colleagues, like Ed Husic, would like that to happen. Would you like it to happen?
JEROME LAXALE: I think what the Prime Minister said on this issue is important to understand. We do not want Hamas to be part of a Palestinian state, but we agree with the aspirations of the Palestinian people to have their own state. We see this as an important part of peace in the region. It doesn’t have to be at the end of that peace process, but as part of the peace processes. So, yes, options are open. Australia has its conditions for recognition, and I think they’re appropriate.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK. Zoe, there is a big momentum around this. We are certainly not going it alone. We haven’t even gone there anyway. But we’ve got Canada, the UK, France, of course, on Friday last week. Isn’t there a sort of sense of momentum around this, that big Western nations are saying there needs to be two states, and we’re going to start forcing the issue?
ZOE MCKENZIE: Keep in mind the conditions upon which they have based that recognition are different for each jurisdiction. So, France said one thing, the UK has said another, and Canada has said another still. In relation to Canada’s statement, they have been quite clear to say that this is an understanding that they have with the Palestinian Authority. Now, that is relevant for the West Bank. It is not relevant for Gaza. Hamas has run Gaza since 2005. There have not been any democratic elections there since then. And Hamas is a terrorist organisation, recognised by all of us, one that took the lives of 1,200 innocent Israeli people and continues to hold 50 hostage. We must not act in a way that looks like Hamas is in any way being rewarded for what it has done, and therefore we must keep the recognition of a Palestinian state and the negotiation of a two-state solution very separate from what we are seeing in Gaza. The images coming out of Gaza are extremely distressing for all of us. There is an urgent need to get aid in there. That is the conversation we need to be having at the moment, not one that could be perceived as rewarding Hamas for what happened on October 7, 2023.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Penny Wong addressed this issue of the rewarding of Hamas. She said, actually, Hamas doesn’t support a two-state solution. She’s right. Hamas, this is a radical terror-listed organisation. They’re not about two states.
ZOE MCKENZIE: Absolutely right, and parts of the Palestinian Authority in the past have not supported a two-state solution either. So, therefore, everything in its time and no responses that are… I understand they’re motivated by the images we’re seeing coming out of Gaza at the moment, but we must not proceed with haste in a way that will actually not bring about enduring peace and respect for both sides of a two-state solution.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, if we’re going to critique the Palestinian side for some lack of adherence to this idea of a two-state solution, Zoe, Benjamin Netanyahu has been actively working against a two-state solution. Does that worry you?
ZOE MCKENZIE: I think we have to bring pressure to bear on all sides to pursue peace, expectations of peace and negotiation. My understanding of in recent times that the ceasefire has been prevented by Hamas’s action, not by Israel’s action. But, again, I’m loathed to get into the detail here because we all know Middle East peace, Middle East politics are extremely dense. I don’t want to misstep here, but I do want to say do not proceed with haste here lest we reward horrendous terrorism behaviour.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, throwing that back to you, Jerome, can you recognise a Palestinian state without doing what Zoe says?
JEROME LAXALE: Well, I’m sure Zoe’s got a lot of opinions. We’ll go back to what the Prime Minister said. He’s laid out his conditions for the recognition of a Palestinian state. It’s something that has been a long-held position of the Government and the Labor Party. Hamas cannot be part of a Palestinian state that’s recognised, and we want it as part of the peace process.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: All right, I want to talk about this secret meeting with Kash Patel, the FBI Director. Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke has confirmed he had dinner with the FBI Director Kash Patel. Now, usually when there are foreign people like this who come to Australia, we get a bit of a heads-up that there’s this foreign meeting and that this important person’s coming. I’m thinking about the weekend, AUSMIN and the UK Foreign Minister being here. That sort of thing happens. Zoe, is it a bit weird that we didn’t know about that?
ZOE MCKENZIE: To be fair, Patricia, I have been so focused on early childhood this week and indeed the educational legislation going through the Chamber that I have nothing to add on that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I actually really respect people who don’t have opinions when they’re not informed, so I think people would go, yeah, OK. But I’m going to throw that at you, Jerome. I didn’t get a press release saying this Kash Patel dude’s coming to Australia. Is that a bit weird?
JEROME LAXALE: I’m sorry, Patricia. I’m going to have to let this one go through the keeper too. I’ve been dealing with the breaking news of the AFP all afternoon, so I’m not aware of this reporting or these plans, so you might have to ask your next guest.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, I’m nearly off air, so I can’t ask my next guest, but it is something I think that’s fascinating. We will keep looking into it. Penny Wong confirming that it was the case too. You both have been focused on the big issues around childcare for sure, but just as we end the parliamentary sitting fortnight, it has been really quite an interesting start to the 48th Parliament. Is it your sense, Zoe, that there has been a big shift since the election? Obviously, your numbers are much lower, but there is a different kind of mood in the Parliament for the way that you want to advance?
ZOE MCKENZIE: Oh, I’m not sure about a different mood. Look, I think Sussan has been really collaborative. She started there by saying we will collaborate where the country needs us to. We will hold the government to account as people expect us to as well. We also recognise the result that is before us in the Parliament. The government holds 94 seats. They will get their way in terms of legislation. If we have an opportunity to improve things, we will absolutely lean in to do it. And when the government gets it wrong, don’t you worry, we’ll be bringing that up quick-smart. But it is a fortnight in which we have taken into account exactly the size of the Labor government’s majority in that place. And we respect that. We respect that that’s the outcome of the election. We’re not going to pretend it’s not the case, so we’re just getting on with the job.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, and I know that you’ve listed, Jerome, for the next parliamentary sitting period, a debate on Barnaby Joyce’s net zero bill. Now, why would the government waste time on that, given it won’t even get up?
JEROME LAXALE: Well, I was just about to say, I wouldn’t paint quite a rosy picture for the Coalition over there. You know, it’s been quite an interesting…
PATRICIA KARVELAS: My question, which I’m going to bring you to, because it’s a very good question. Why waste time on something? I mean, the bill’s not going up. Why do you want to spend time on it? It seems like a waste of time, doesn’t it?
JEROME LAXALE: Well, I think this is a debate that needs to be settled, Patricia. It’s been 20 years of just fighting over something that we know scientists say is happening. Like, we’ve had two election results back-to-back. We’ve received a mandate to continue. The Coalition need to settle on this. And what we’ve seen over the past fortnight is that they’re tearing one another apart. We’ve got half of the Nationals in the House of Reps as Barnaby Joyce is introducing the bill. You’ve got the Nationals’ leader saying another thing. You’ve got Sussan Ley saying nothing on net zero. I mean, even Peter Dutton had a position on net zero, and Sussan Ley does not. So, we need this debate to end so that we can move forward together as a nation, get towards net zero, hopefully sooner than 2050. You know, that’s something that I’m keen on trying to prosecute over my time in this place. But they need to sort out what’s going on over there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Alright, we’re out of time, Zoe. You’re going to have to come on next time, and we’ll talk about that. Thank you to both of you. And that’s Afternoon Briefing for today.
ENDS.
